FinOps in Action

FIA - Borja Martinez
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Borja Martinez: [00:00:00] Yeah. We always struggling to move this conversation from from cost to to value, I'm not saying that you know, finops person or finops lead has to be at, at that table, but maybe finops data has to be at that table. So I think finops data them to make better and smarter decisions.

Welcome to finops in Action. I'm your host, Alon Arvatz. Each week I'll sit down with finops experts to explore the toughest challenges between finops and engineering. This show is brought to you by 0.5, empowering teams to optimize cloud costs with tip detection and remediation tools that drive action.

Alon Arvatz: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of finops in Action. You know how much I am intrigued by the careers of finops people, and today's guest has a very, very special career path. He actually started as a professional basketball player [00:01:00] for 12 years across multiple teams in Spain. Then he was a physical therapist.

Somehow from there, he got into cloud and finops. He's building finops strategy and offerings to companies across Spain and Europe. I'm happy to welcome EMEA finops, lead at Entity Data Borja Martinez Borja. How are you today?

Borja Martinez: Hello, Alon. Thank you. Thank you for, for having me. I'm, uh, a loyal listener to podcast, so a, it's a pleasure for me.

Alon Arvatz: It is always a pleasure and an honor to host someone who is actually a listener to the podcast. So thank you for mentioning that. And Borja, let's get, uh, straight to business. You had a long career, but at some point you got into finops. I'm curious, what is the one thing you got wrong when you started finops Career?

Borja Martinez: That's a very good question. I, I, I would say maybe thinking that that PHS is [00:02:00] a one time effort. Uh, thing, because at the beginning you always start and, and focus on optimizing the, the, the resources and, and focus on the technical perspective. And, and we always forgot the, that this is about people and, and, and culture.

Alon Arvatz: Wow, that's a, a powerful, uh, insight. And basically, ops is a big word. So I think a lot of people like to emphasize showing the business value of your cloud investments. I think that is easier to show ongoing value, but there is a certain perception about the optimization that it is a one-time thing. Do you also think that, uh, cost optimization is, is an ongoing effort?

Borja Martinez: Definitely. Yes. I think, uh, because the, the, the, the, the environment is, is is always dynamic. You, your cloud, environmental or technology is, is always changing. And also the, this [00:03:00] business context or the, the, the momentum of the, of the company, uh, is also changing. So it is not the same, the value is not the same in, in some point in time, the company maybe is. It's, it's a startup and it, and it's growing, eh, a lot and 10 years, afterwards, maybe the value means another thing. So you have to, to consider everything in the context. I think it's very, very important.

Alon Arvatz: And I have to agree, you know, environments are very, very, uh, dynamic. I will also add. That the cloud provider is also very dynamic. You know, suddenly Kubernetes came into our lives and completely disrupted everything we knew about the phenoms and also cost optimization. And now we have AI on the horizon, which will also create its own, uh, challenges.

I will also say that also the expertise of the industry. Is also improving. So, uh, the [00:04:00] ability to do optimization and deeper optimization, going from just looking from idle resources to going to deeper ones around architecture, around data, um, at drift, around configuration is also advancing. So when you work with companies around pheno, do you see that over time companies are becoming more and more advanced when it comes to cost optimization?

Borja Martinez: yes. Sometimes yes, they, they definitely become more complicated in terms of, cloud architecture and cloud resources and, and all that, so. So yes, the compensation uh, more and more difficult. Uh, it's, it's, it's time and which is, is very evolving. Uh, but still there are some, some companies that they are. Not very mature in, in, in ization. So, so sometimes it's worth it to start with the, with the basics,

and, [00:05:00] and and build trust, which is very important also. and with this low hanging fruit and, and wins and, and then move to, to some more complicated, architectural review or efficiency or things like that.

Alon Arvatz: It is actually a good reminder that many companies out there are still in the. Crawl, uh, stage, they're still making their first steps in finops. And the basics are still important. Things that, uh, look to us very, very trivial are not always trivial, at least not to everyone. And I can also see it, by the way, when I meet with.

Executives who are maybe doesn't have a lot of experience in finops, they ask very, very fundamental questions like, Hey, isn't it a one time effort? And it, and that's it, and things like that. So obviously reminding the principles is always important, especially for people who are not finops in their day to.

Borja Martinez: Yeah. We always struggling to move this conversation from from cost to to [00:06:00] value, and it's also. A lot of people that, that think that it's just, uh, reducing cost and, and that's it. One time effort as, as you mentioned. and we always try to, improve our, our message and, and some of the, the value has apart from the cost reduction.

Alon Arvatz: Great. And I know that you work a lot with companies and I wonder when you engage now with a company and you wanna help them do this transformation from talking about cost to talking about value, is that something you have to do? Across the board, or you feel like you mostly need to do it with people outside of FinOps, maybe executives, maybe other departments.

How do you experience it?

Borja Martinez: Yeah, maybe with, with people outside, FinOps, I would say it's different. If the company has already a FinOps practice, uh, in place or a FinOps team, that's, [00:07:00] that will easier. But if they don't have a, a enough steam, you have to, to deal with, a lot of different stakeholders and, and you have to educate them and, and to try to, to them to understand, uh, the importance of the, of the context, not just the, the cost.

Because most of the times came to, to us, regarding the cost.

Alon Arvatz: Cool. So what actually brings companies to to work with you and re strategize their whole Fins program?

Borja Martinez: Well, one, one thing I, I always to, to ask, uh, our customers when, when, when we start talking with, with them, uh, is telling us, uh, or, or giving us some documentation or have a, a call. To understand the business context and the, and the technology requirements and what, what is important for, for the business. also another thing that I think is very [00:08:00] important. How is the company or the, the organization structure, what role does the technology or it playing the company? Because sometimes it's a just a call center and the, the idea behind is different. but sometimes they are very proactive and they add value and they propose things. So the approach is, is, is different. And, and I would say for us as a consultant is, is very complicated and very challenging because if I believe, uh, which I really believe and that the context and, uh, this study is very important, uh, from, for us from outside and go, uh, outside from a company. Uh, to try to understand the momentum and everything.

It's, it's, sometimes, it's very, very, but I think it's, it's worth it to, to, to try to, to approach, I guess.

Alon Arvatz: Great. So [00:09:00] you basically, you wanna understand the broader business context and then you also want to understand. How do they look at cloud cost? Because you say it's very different when it's a cost center versus, if I understood you correctly, versus probably usually tech companies who see that as a growth, a growth factor.

Does that change the way you approach the, uh, the company, whether it's like a cost center or a growth engine and, and how you do finops or how you help 'em strategize? Strategize, finops.

Borja Martinez: Yeah, I think if, if they see IP or technology as a cost center, I would say the, the, the, the focus is more, much more, uh, educating the people and, uh, so them the, the value, uh, pheno can provide. Um, but if they are a technology company, and it's [00:10:00] more connecting the, the, the cloud spend or the cloud metrics or KPIs to the business to, to solve them, okay, you are spending, I know, 20% more year over year, but your revenue is also growing more than that by 20%. So actually it's a good, a good thing you are being efficient. So things like that, uh, sometimes we lose our perspective and we are focus in the, in the cost. And I think that is, this is very, very important.

Alon Arvatz: So Borja, that's actually fascinating. So you basically say when the cloud is more of a cost center, you have to work harder to map out what is the value you get out of cloud when it's part of your product or a growth engine. Then it's a lot more doing like the technical work of, hey. Every dollar I put in the cloud, how much revenues it produces for me and show them that if cost grows up, but also revenue grow [00:11:00] up, it's fine.

This is how it should happen. I am curious if you feel like there is a different approach to cost optimization in these two types of companies.

Borja Martinez: yes. Maybe we were talking before, maybe in, in the, in this second case. Which is a technology company, more advanced in technology. Uh, let's say, um, probably this low hanging fruit is, is already, um, is already approached and it's already they have these, these savings and these basic things, uh, place. So maybe you have to focus more on efficiency, more technical to be more specific in around some kind of technology or things like that. Um, but if you are in the, in the first case, which is, uh, technology, they see that like cost center, uh, these are the kinds of company that the center is in the, in the business, and they want. [00:12:00] Something at the business level technology, Hey, I need this. Okay, this is a, this is your budget. I don't care how, how you, how you develop this, uh, because, because if it's inside the budget, it's okay. So I, I don't care anything else. So think it's different different approach.

Alon Arvatz: Yes. It's actually a very, very fundamental distinction between two type of companies and two types of pheno programs. I think it's different incentives, different, uh, approach in many, many ways. And actually when you, maybe, when you join a new company, uh, as a new pheno person, one of the first you need to understand, okay, is how they look at.

Cloud or technology costs because that will probably dictate the type of finops leader, uh, you will need to be.

Borja Martinez: Yes, sure. Absolutely, and, and also.

Alon Arvatz: I.

Borja Martinez: Uh, I think they, the stakeholders involved are also [00:13:00] different maybe in, in a technology company if people are more, more techy, let's say, and, and with more knowledge around technology, uh, in the other side maybe are more uh, people or finance people without. Context or without knowledge around how technology or how cloud, uh, and, and it's different stakeholders or different

Alon Arvatz: Yeah.

Borja Martinez: and different study.

Alon Arvatz: Cool. And give us some, uh, golden advice. How do I know that I need finops strategy services, or, or how do I know that I need a new finops strategy?

Borja Martinez: It depends on the, on the way you are looking at your cloud cost. If you are reactive, um, or when you don't have the, the proper visibility or you can't connect your cloud spend [00:14:00] with your business or, or you don't know who is spending what and, and why. And so basically, if you are focused only in, in savings and not in the value, definitely you will need nothing enough Study.

Alon Arvatz: Okay. That's, uh, that's good. That's good to know. And I think that it's not only for companies that start their, their final of journey, sometimes you have to do the next leap and then you need to challenge your current assumptions. Um.

Borja Martinez: Yeah.

Alon Arvatz: and then I think that an outside look, an outside perspective is, is a positive thing.

It doesn't matter if it's like a company that gives services or a friend who does FFinOps for many years by now and can have a look at what you're doing and challenge you. I think every once in a while it's a very, very positive, uh, process to go through.

Borja Martinez: Yeah, yeah, sure. And I also like this, this thing about, um, [00:15:00] bringing finops to the executive table or something like that. And I'm, I'm not, I wrote an article around this some weeks ago and,

Alon Arvatz: By the way, I read it.

Borja Martinez: okay. Okay. Thank you. And, and it is not. So I'm, I'm not saying that you know, finops person or finops lead has to be at, at that table, but maybe finops data has to be at that table. So I think finops data them to make better and smarter decisions. but I also think that. This has to start with them, with executive with with us more about the, the business goals, the strategy and, and all that. And, and from that we can provide them better data.

Alon Arvatz: Absolutely. Absolutely. Cool. That's great. And Borja, I know that you're really, really [00:16:00] big on community. I see you on every community event. You know everybody on the floor, so I know it's pretty big for you, this whole community thing. Why? Why do you think it's so important?

Borja Martinez: Yes, you absolutely right. Uh, for me, the finops community is, it's, uh, amazing. I, I, I can't remember I started finops, uh, journey. I. Connecting with, with everyone in, in Lincoln, and I am, uh, sending called dms to, to, to people asking about the, the field of journey and, and everyone, uh. Answer. I think I can say, you know, 99% of the people, uh, they answer and they, you can set a, a call with, with them to, to ask whatever you you want. Uh, then some months later, you see each other in, in person, in a field of event at San Diego [00:17:00] or London or like that. Then you catch up again and, and you build a relationship. And, but you always know that, that if you need anything, so if you are, in my case, a new client with a new challenge, and we, I can think and I can remember, well, I, I can remember guy is doing something similar.

I want to to ask him, how does he approach? And, and people are always willing to, to share And, uh, yeah. And it's very very open with.

Alon Arvatz: I think it's great. I think it's great. And I'm curious if like, if like the fact that you think com community is so important is also because you came from outside of technology into fins. So I think people that came from technology or IT obviously ha have a smoother transition, but someone who came from basketball and physical therapy,

Borja Martinez: Yes.

Alon Arvatz: it can, it can be a [00:18:00] lot harder.

Was the community an important factor in getting you into the Fins world?

Borja Martinez: Yeah, yeah, sure. I, I, I needed something, source of truth, uh, when I can, um, ask, uh, my, my, my challenges and my, my questions, my, the fitness community is, was always, always there and, and always hoping. So yeah, definitely in my case. Yes. And I think there are, know a lot of people, maybe not, but several people that moved to Phoenix from another, uh, discipline I know from maybe from from finance or from from brave management or for product or uh, different regions, but, but the same.

They need or we need the same help.

Alon Arvatz: Absolutely. And Borja, I have a question for you that might, uh, catch you, uh, by surprise. You [00:19:00] were a professional basketball player for 12 years.

Is there anything we can learn from basketball to finops?

Borja Martinez: Yes, I think so. I, I, believe that you can apply almost everything you, you learn in, or your experience in your life to, to, to do everything you know, in this case for, for ops, definitely. Uh, this is also a team effort or a team sport. I like basketball. Uh, also communication I think is very, very important, uh, in basketball specifically and in,

in in fitness also. So yeah, maybe this, those two things

Alon Arvatz: That's great. That's great. That's great advice from a basketball player, which is awesome. And I'm a big fan of basketball, I admit, so I'm pretty jealous right now. I have to say. I'm pretty jealous.

Borja Martinez: We can play next. Next time we see each other, [00:20:00] we can play.

Alon Arvatz: Next Fin X I'm gonna get my basketball shoes and jerseys, and we're gonna play one on one Borja.

Borja Martinez: Okay. We have to

Alon Arvatz: You'll play, you'll play with one hand, uh, uh, behind your back and hopefully we'll have, we'll have an equal game.

Borja Martinez: Yeah, sure.

Alon Arvatz: Cool. Borja, thank you so much for all the amazing insights. I, in particular love, the distinction between two different type of companies and how we derive different finops strategy and finops approach and different finops needs. And again, it emphasizes again the importance of tailoring your. Uh, finops strategy and program to the company you're at and how important it is to understand the business context and also how the organization is looking at cloud and how it benefits from cloud.

And I don't wanna stop here Borja, because obviously wanna learn a lot more about you on the personal, personal [00:21:00] level. So today you live in, uh, Madrid. Correct. Which I've never been to, and definitely on my bucket list. Uh, are you originally from Madrid or, or for Spain in general.

Borja Martinez: I'm from the, from the north of Spain. Um, but I moved, uh, to uh, when I started my studies. Um, then there was some years, that's why we playing basketball in, in SA Island cities. And then I started definitely in, in, uh, you know, like, uh, 15 years ago, more or less. When I

Alon Arvatz: Okay. Very cool.

Borja Martinez: wife and that's,

Alon Arvatz: Nice. Nice. That's always how it works.

Borja Martinez: yes.

Alon Arvatz: And for those of us who are not that familiar with Spain, like what's the difference between, uh, Northern Spain and Madrid?

Borja Martinez: I would say mainly different the size of the, of the city. Because when, yeah, when I [00:22:00] came from, it's

Alon Arvatz: I.

Borja Martinez: small, uh, city and, and you know, in a small, uh, city's life is different. And you can go everywhere and, and you have to, to move from, from one side to another. just 15, 20 minutes walking and, and that's it. And here in Madrid, everything is, is bigger. And, and also I think people is, is also different. When I, when I came Marice, people are very, very open and very, very, very kind, very warm with, with people. A lot of people, eh, from outside Marina living here, so they are very used to to, yeah, to deal with, with different people, different cultures, and different countries.

Alon Arvatz: Nice. I am fascinated by cultures, by the way, and more specifically how culture changes within the same country. That's always very, very surprising, but that's the [00:23:00] reality. But the way, even in a small country like Israel, you can find pretty significant differences across different regions. That's cool.

Borja Martinez: that's, that's

true in, uh, in, in kilometers, uh, distance is, uh, a big, big difference and, uh, very different. And life and people and,

Alon Arvatz: Okay. Very cool. Very cool. And, uh, Borja, any book or movie you'd like to recommend to us?

Borja Martinez: Uh, book, yes. No movie I, I don't like at all, uh, movies. They, You

Alon Arvatz: like movies?

Borja Martinez: know,

Alon Arvatz: my.

Borja Martinez: They, they require too, too much, uh, to, to log my attention. For me, I, I, I need to do different things, uh, in, in a third time. Uh, and a book, I would say pseudo, eh, is from the creator of Nike, uh, feel Knight. And, and I, I, I love the, really [00:24:00] love this, this book. There's a. A sentence, uh, at that book, which is life is growth. Uh, you grow or you die. And am feeling represented in that in that sentence.

Alon Arvatz: Very cool. You heard him? Shoe dog. Go look it up. It's actually very fascinating because every time we got a lot of recommendations about the biographies of people who build companies. I think there was someone, some recommend about, uh, Ford and I think we had maybe McDonald's at some point. I think so.

It's becoming a theme. Maybe I should get get to it. Maybe I should get to it.

Borja Martinez: Yep.

Alon Arvatz: Great. And anything you like to like to do for fun?

Borja Martinez: Uh, well, I like, uh, watching basketball. I don't play now at all, but I, I like, uh, watching basketball and I have three

Alon Arvatz: No.

Borja Martinez: so my time is is for, [00:25:00] for them. Um, yeah. And stay, go out with friends also, and, yeah.

Alon Arvatz: Nice. What basketball? NBA Euro League. The Spanish League.

Borja Martinez: more, more Spanish or Usually yeah. More

Alon Arvatz: Okay.

Borja Martinez: yeah.

Alon Arvatz: Okay. I'm also, I told you, a big, uh, basketball fan and, uh, I definitely also follow NBA. And Euro League, honestly, Israel League a bit less, um, because, uh, honestly it's a bit less interesting. But, uh, I love, I love to, to to see basketball and I'm also very, very happy to, to see that there is an Israeli NBA player right now who is actually a candidate for the, for the All Stars.

So that's, that's really exciting for me personally.

Cool. So Borja, thank you for sharing, sharing all of that. It was incredible. Um, I'm sure people would love to reach out and ask questions. What is the best way to reach out to you?

Borja Martinez: I think [00:26:00] LinkedIn. LinkedIn is the best, the best, the best place to connect. Uh, I think I, I

Alon Arvatz: I.

Borja Martinez: it, uh, a lot, to connect, uh, with people also to, to read some nice, uh, articles and, and to learn some things. But, but to, to connect the field is the best place.

Alon Arvatz: Great. You heard him hit him on LinkedIn and hit him hard. Uh, Borja, thank you again for everything. I was, again, really fascinated by, by all the insights, particularly, particularly how you do the profiling of companies and how you approach. Now a strategy process with organizations. It's actually pretty interesting.

And again, it's not only relevant for someone who is looking for services, I think it's relevant for anyone who want to restrategize his, uh, pheno program. So you already gave him some initial tools to work with, so thank you so much for joining us today.

Borja Martinez: You a.

Alon Arvatz: Yeah. And thank you for being a loyal [00:27:00] listener, and I'll also thank all the listeners who many of them are of them are very much loyal as well. Thank you for joining us again. I'm sure you had the blast and learned a lot. Please tell your friends about finops in action. Wanna get more people? Engage more people involved.

Borja, thank you again. This will be another fascinating fun episode, pheno in Action. See you all next time.

That wraps up another episode of finops in Action. Thank you for joining. For show notes and more, please visit finops in action.com. This show is brought to you by 0.5, empowering teams to optimize cloud costs with tip detection and remediation tools that drive action.